How estimates will work
We've been discussing this internally and we think we've got a model that will work for most people, which we've outlined below. There's a lot of ground covered here and this may or may not all be released at the same time, but we welcome any feedback.
Broadly speaking estimates will be modelled on how Invoices work. The flow would work as follows:
Create a new “Estimate”
Estimate State Bar
Similar to the invoice status bar this would allow people to set the state of the estimate:
Estimates differ slightly from invoices in that they can be resent multiple times.
Viewing Estimates and Workflow
Once the estimate has been saved/sent it gets added to the Estimate list.
This would display the Status and potentially a "Show History" link here. This would reveal a list of the history of the estimate.
The Status thing is important as it allows people to create their own workflow by changing the type from Estimate > Quote > Proposal and then resending to the client. The Show History link in the Status Column would show what was done, and when, so examples might be:
The great thing about this workflow is that it can completely ignored it or used it as much as people want.
Broadly speaking estimates will be modelled on how Invoices work. The flow would work as follows:
Create a new “Estimate”
- With the option to select “Type” from a selection of Estimate, Quote and Proposal. This is a purely semantic decision for some people but for others it ties into a workflow process.
- Fill in other details: Contact and optionally Project. We thought about this for a while and it may be important to associated an estimate with a project once it’s been given the green light and converted into a live project
- Other possible fields: Date, Ref, P/O, Additional Info
Estimate State Bar
Similar to the invoice status bar this would allow people to set the state of the estimate:
- Draft
- Sent
- Mark as Approved
- Convert to Invoice
Estimates differ slightly from invoices in that they can be resent multiple times.
Viewing Estimates and Workflow
Once the estimate has been saved/sent it gets added to the Estimate list.
This would display the Status and potentially a "Show History" link here. This would reveal a list of the history of the estimate.
The Status thing is important as it allows people to create their own workflow by changing the type from Estimate > Quote > Proposal and then resending to the client. The Show History link in the Status Column would show what was done, and when, so examples might be:
- Draft Estimate
- Quote sent 3 feb 09
- Proposal sent 6 feb 09
- Proposal approved 9 feb 09
- Converted to Invoice 13 apr 09
The great thing about this workflow is that it can completely ignored it or used it as much as people want.
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Inappropriate?That all sounds pretty spot on for me and I think will cover almost all the situations I want...will have a think to see if there's anything I think may be missing and get back to you :)
I’m excited
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Inappropriate?that all sounds great, but i wouldn't mind an intermediary step in the status workflow - something like 'Work in Progress'. Actually I guess 'Mark as approved' roughly covers the same status.
I think what I'm really after from that is the ability to see the value of all currently uninvoiced work in progress. -
Inappropriate?Sounds pretty good to me!
Once I stumbled upon this estimator, and I like the idea:
- http://astuteo.com/estimator
So would be nice if FreeAgents estimator has the same kind of framework (that is, the estimate split up in activities), and the same ease of use.
Once the estimate is split up in activities, it would be nice to time track the activities. This way I would be able to compare the estimated hours with the actual hours.
I'm not sure about converting the estimate to an invoice. Depends on the project. If it's a fixed price project, conversion of the estimate is the way to go. But if it isn't, I would prefer to create the invoice based upon the time tracked hours.
Hope this helps a bit...
Need to say I'm still exploring the ground,
as I only started freelancing in November 2008 ;)
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Inappropriate?Just one thing I've thought about...
It would be nice to be able to merge all completed estimates/quotes into one invoice at month end for each project - otherwise I can see that it would chuck out an invoice for each estimate which would be a pain... I think for this though you would need an extra status:
Work in Progress/Mark as approved -> Completed Pending Invoice -> Invoiced -
Inappropriate?Converting the estimate to an invoice is a winner for me -
most of our work is based on a fixed price proposal, (time tracking is just to see whether we got it right or not). Ongoing work that is based on an hourly rate doesn't get estimated beforehand.
If estimates were able to be added to an invoice like expenses/time sheets, then i can see @djwhisky would be happy
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Inappropriate?@toby - yep that would work nicely for me. I have a mix of hourly rate work and fixed price work often on the same project (clients - don't ask!)... so need to be able to merge both of these into a single invoice
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Inappropriate?@toby, @djwisky
Agreed ;)
Most of the time I have fixed price projects, but afterwards work is often invoiced as "extra work" or somehing on an hourly rate.
So indeed, need to be able to merge both of these into a single invoice.
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Inappropriate?Good Morning: I am *late* to the discussion; but I would really like the function of a report on the *dashboard* that shows the ongoing totals for estimates as well as accounts receivable. That way we can see what we might expect in income for a particular time period.
I’m excited!
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Inappropriate?I'm liking this idea, it pretty much answers the question I asked a wee while ago. Basically I'm after a way to create a project start it as a prospective job. I think what you've outlined would do that and more :)
One thing though... I don't invoice at this stage at the moment, so would it be possible to convert it into an active job and just continue from there invoicing as you would normally?
I’m happy
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Inappropriate?@Pamela - yep I agree... I think what's needed is some kind of combination showing estimates, value of timeslips etc...maybe some kind of expansion of the invoice timeline...
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Inappropriate?"Estimates differ slightly from invoices in that they can be resent multiple times. "
Will it be possible to have a revision number against the resent estimates and maybe even go back and view the history of each one that's been sent?
I’m being very cheeky now
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Inappropriate?Lots of feedback (well we did ask!), so here goes:
think what I'm really after from that is the ability to see the value of all currently uninvoiced work in progress.
@Toby Stokes. We'll be adding a running total of project amounts invoiced and budgeted soon to the projects table, which should help you here.
I have a mix of hourly rate work and fixed price work often on the same project
@djwhisky: you know you can do this within a single invoice at the minute right? You'd just select one invoice item as a product for example and another as a time based item, allowing you to combine fixed price and time based items in a single invoice. We'll be building estimates the same way.
It would be nice to be able to merge all completed estimates/quotes into one invoice at month end for each project
@djwhisky: This won't be available in the first iteration of estimates. It introduces a much greater degree of complexity than a single estimate to invoice relationship.
I'm not really sure how relevant it is to the majority of people as well. See my point about fixed rate and time based items on the same invoice above. I would have thought that would cover most scenarios but I could be wrong.
Will it be possible to have a revision number against the resent estimates and maybe even go back and view the history of each one that's been sent?
@djwhisky: Kind of :) The Show History link will show you what changes have been made to the estimate (when it was sent/approved etc) but you probably won't be able to view older versions of that estimate. That would be a lot more work.
I don't invoice at this stage at the moment, so would it be possible to convert it into an active job and just continue from there invoicing as you would normally?
@Ryan: We'll allow you to associate an estimate with a project if you want, and you'll be able to convert an estimate into an invoice at any time.
I'm not sure how we're going to handle time tracking against estimates yet. I think that will have to wait until after the first release.
but I would really like the function of a report on the *dashboard* that shows the ongoing totals for estimates as well as accounts receivable.
@Pamela: That's a great idea, and it ties in well with the cash flow forecasting we're talking about at the minute as well. Consider it "on the list".
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Just generally, getting this right is a real balance between the right level of functionality so people can use it effectively and not taking 6 months to release it. We want people using this stuff soon.
That means that not all feature requests will make it into a first release, but we will consider everything people say, so thanks!
I’m knackered now
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Inappropriate?@Roan - wow! Thanks for the updates...
Understand you won't be able to roll estimated into one invoice at the outset, but for me it would really be an essential bit of functionality to get away from having to track everything on spreadsheets and then creating an invoice at month end:
For a number of my clients I am working on a number of different projects (with one, for example, I probably have 20+ different projects on the go at any one time - they're an advertising agency and they outsource all their web work to me so each one of their clients websites are a project under that client). Over the course of a month I may do many small changes to each website quoting each change on a case-by-case basis (i.e. £80 here, £20 there, £400 over there) and then, at month end, roll all of these up into an itemised invoice for work done on each project. If each quote ended up as a separate invoice it would mean hundreds of invoices going out, not to mention the waste of paper and my client's admin time to collate it all back together. I'd then have to also split the one cheque (for all projects!) when I get paid back between all the little tiddly invoices rather than just the ten or so that would apply otherwise.
I don't feel I can really have a draft invoice for each project over the course of a month as it would mean that I would be assigning invoice numbers, invoice dates etc way too early. I would end up with invoices numbers and dates out of sequence if, as happens, I raise an invoice for another client mid-way through the month!
Sorry if i'm a pain!
I’m difficult!
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Inappropriate?@djwhisky: I think i see where you're coming from.
So would you quote separately for all these small changes as each comes up? And you're really looking for a way to combine these into a single invoice at the end of the month?
Just thinking about this now, maybe there is a relatively simple solution that links estimates with task items when you associate an estimate with a project.
Then you could generate invoices from those combined tasks.
Like I say, it won't be in phase one, but I'll have a chat with the dev team and see what they say
I’m thinking there's often a simple solution to a complex problem
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Inappropriate?@Roan - yep spot on! My client will email me with little tweaks and things needed as they get them for their clients and I'll quote for each individual item as they come up.
I’m ever hopeful!
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Inappropriate?
It would be nice to be able to merge all completed estimates/quotes into one invoice at month end for each project
@djwhisky: This won't be available in the first iteration of estimates. It introduces a much greater degree of complexity than a single estimate to invoice relationship.
I'm only really considering this from a UI point of view, so this may not fit in with your implementation, but surely , on New Invoice screen, under "ADD UNBILLED TIME AND EXPENSES":
Add unbilled estimates [ Don't | One per line ]
That is assuming that estimates are already and always a function of a project, which makes sense to me.
But anyway, I pledge my support to however Roan wants to do it, I know it shall be Good! -
Inappropriate?Would the ability to flag a quote/ proposal as lost or won be of any use to people to help track good prospects and the competitiveness of the market?
1 person thinks
this is one of the best points
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Inappropriate?Just wanted to pipe in and say that I am eagerly awaiting this feature. The process described above cover my requirements perfectly.
Having two separate processes for quotes and invoices is quite a challenge at the moment.
I’m excited
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Inappropriate?@Tim - yep i would like that too... wondering if it just needs another status against the estimate i.e. "Lost" ?
If it moves into Mark as Approved it is assumed it's won?
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Inappropriate?Glad to see we seem to be on the right track.
I'm only really considering this from a UI point of view, so this may not fit in with your implementation, but surely , on New Invoice screen, under "ADD UNBILLED TIME AND EXPENSES":
Add unbilled estimates [ Don't | One per line ]
@Toby: Great minds! I was thinking along those same lines. There is some devil in the details here, as we want to allow people to convert an estimate to an invoice with one click. Nothing impossible, just requires thinking.
I'm starting to see this as a lot more feasible. :)
@Tim - yep i would like that too... wondering if it just needs another status against the estimate i.e. "Lost" ?
Something else to consider... -
Inappropriate?Can't believe I missed the thread until today - however, All sounds great.
Could I stick a marker in the ground for the second cut of development, for having an electronic 'acceptance' = client clicks a button to 'approve' the estimate/quote.
This could be a link in the email that directs to a page/form, same kind of deal as any email address validation link... in essence, "...you've received the emailed quote, type this acceptance code, then click here to give the go ahead...".
(...erm, or we ain't starting... ;-)
1 person thinks
this is one of the best points
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Inappropriate?Hi Philip,
Never to late to chip in!
Having client access to FreeAgent to accept estimates and ultimately pay invoices would be great and it's something we're keen to do at some stage, but there's a lot of work to be done.
We've been working on user access levels in the background for a while now so we're edging towards it but I can't promise when we'll have this available. -
Inappropriate?No hurry - it's one of the things in CashBoard they do well - both groups (you and they) are on somewhat parallel, slowly converging paths in development.
With a foot in both camps, I'm grateful for the convergence preventing me from doing the splits...
Would be fab-tastic for there to be no daylight between your two offerings, i.e. transparent transfer/updating between the two apps.
Cashboard's project time-tracking and Basecamp interaction handling estimation, sign-off, day to day project progress, with the option to generate through to yours ( a sync) for handling all the related expenses/ corporate / personal / tax and necessary consolidation at project, client, business level.
Ring up Seth at SubImage and have a chat. I'd pay for three accounts (well, I am doing), happy to run client projects in BaseCamp, with day to day recording etc., estimating and invoicing in Cashboard, and a 'sync to FreeAgent' option that replicates my projects, contacts, invoices (and their state).
You're different enough and the same enough, and I claim my "hhumm, yes, why don't we?" £5.00 introduction fee...
I’m serious about the five quid...
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Inappropriate?Integration with other apps is definitely something we need to do more of, but in the first instance it makes sense for us to play the numbers game and integrate with apps like Basecamp that lots of our customers already use and doesn't have quite so much crossover with what we're doing.
I've heard good things about CashBoard though and would love to talk with them at some point. -
Inappropriate?Hi guys,
We've completed our initial development work on Estimates now, and it's looking great. Most of the ideas here have been incorporated, even some we didn't think would make it into the first release (multiple estimates on an invoice anyone?)
Since you were all so helpful in this thread I thought I'd ask if you'd like to help beta test the new feature before we release it officially next week.
If so, just send a email to roan [at] freeagentcentral [dot] com and I'll let you have access to our staging server.
Many thanks.
I’m excited to hear what people think
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Inappropriate?Hi Roan,
This is exciting, really looking forward to Estimates!
I'd love to help testing, but cannot promise to have enough time this week. Just dropped you an e-mail ;)
Cheers Mate
I’m excited!
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Inappropriate?Roan,
Just got in this thread too; I basically understand all of the above and maybe my question is out of place, but here it goes.
What if you produced an Estimate, got it Approved and then subsequently Invoiced only "part" of that to the customer, for example out of a 10 day Estimate, you Invoice "up front" 4 days then 3 days per month going forward ?
How would you go about accomplishing that ?
A+
I’m confident
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Inappropriate?Hi Andrew,
It's not ideal but you could do the following:
1. Create the estimate, mark it as Approved and then convert to Invoice
2. Manually edit the new Invoice to reduce the amount (10 > 4 days)
3. Issue the other invoice(s) at a later date for the 6 days
Would that work for you?
I’m hoping that does the trick
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Inappropriate?Hi Roan,
That's what I thought you we're going to say ;-)
That will work.
By the way, what's the difference between a Estimate, Quote & Proposal ?
PS* Signed up and am testing Javelin CRM following you're Newsletter, I'm currently using Pipeline Deals which is very straightforward also, the choice is going to be difficult.
Talk soon !
I’m happy
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A Proposal would be a description of how you might answer a brief or query, it may or may not have any figure(s) attached. It may masquerade as an estimate, being essentially a list of items with a introduction/method.
An estimate would be an assessment of the cost of implementing your proposal based on current knowledge. It is generally understood in business to not be an offer, though often is read as such by consumers. You may expect it to vary according to conditions and new information on progress of the work, but note that naive clients might expect it to _not_ vary... If a contract is formed with just an estimate as the paperwork there is potentially more flexibility for the supplier, but a customer could push back on reasonability grounds if you were to try and stuff them, particularly if you should have reasonably been expected to have known about the extra costs and were misrepresenting the true cost.
A quote is generally considered a firm commitment to a final price and is an offer that can be accepted by the customer to form a legally binding contract (with that intention), and suppliers may find it difficult to negotiate an increase, unless the change were reasonable (extra work on uncovering dry rot in a building for instance, or clear increases in project scope, or identified customer generated delays etc.)
In most business, using the language above, the flow would be:
1) Query or Enquiry received
2) Proposal sent (generally with ballpark single headline figures)
3) Extra information received in response, with a request for a more detailed estimate
4) Estimate sent (level of cost detail increased, options included)
5) Request for a Quote received (identifying final selection of options)
6) Quote with number/identifier sent (including scope limitations and terms)
7) Numbered Purchase Order for Quote received (including terms etc.)
8) Work Done
9) Invoice against Purchase Order sent
10) Payment received
Forming a legally binding contract doesn't need any paperwork at all - just agreement/intention to enter into a legally binding contract, consideration and reasonability. If you shook on, said, wrote, estimated or quoted it would cost about or exactly £2000, were paid some or all of that, did most of the work and a week from finishing went back with a bill for £8000 there would be some sorting out to do...
Consumers have some statutory rights relating to reasonable cost, business customers need to take more precautions, as do suppliers. Should a contract be judged not to be in place for all or part of the work (It's £8000 because you did £6000 of 'extra' work which they refuse to pay for because "it wasn't in the quote" but YOU say they requested additions during the course of the work), it might mean looking at a Quantum Meruit claim for 'what the job is worth'. However, the sorting out the value of work done in a billing dispute, who asked for what when, and whether they thought/might reasonably have been expected to think you would bill them is a very big pain in the arse. Especially if the work stretches over a few months and you're scratching around for evidence of justification and instructions that were given.
Best pay attention to what you put in the paperwork and the expectations you are raising in the client throughout the progress of the work, don't let the bill creep up without recording assent along with the instruction... -
Inappropriate?Strewth! Sorry about that, what was the question?
I’m thinking I had too much time on my hands between today's sessions
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Inappropriate?@Philip: Wow! That's a comprehensive answer.
Our perspective was that different people have different ideas regarding workflow (many along the same lines as Philip), so giving them the choice of Estimate, Quote or Proposal, and tracking the progression, would allow them to implement their own workflow. -
Inappropriate?... and I like the way it is now as it lets me jump straight to the quote for some work. Nothing worse than being locked into an inflexible workfow...
So, all rosy just up until the point where I want to send a past due reminder... where I'd like options to create a few 'n' days, 'n+x' days, 'n+x+y' days reminder templates, and choose manual/auto as a button press to send them out as the days tick by. But hey, I know you are working on that..;-)
I’m 'orribly content...
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